Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (Capn Steve) — Fri, 23 May 2008 16:28:37 PST

Hi sunsfan --

No one was insulted here. But when someone expresses opinions that are completely untrue (as hotscape did), he/she needs to expect at least some sort of rebuttal.

Cheers.

Steve

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:38:15 PST

Hotscape, as Capt Steve suggested, it does indeed sound like you are a troll. Now, in this post, we learn -- apparently that you are a pilot -- since you say you would get paid more if your airline had a union. My guess is that you are neither a pilot nor employed by an airline. A professional pilot would most certainly not make the statements you make.

When things are said by a troll or someone operating like one, we have to protect people on this site when statements are misrepresented.

For example, your "example". You write "Some very good examples of unionized airlines creating more risk for their passengers just happened last month. Southwest, American, and Delta Airlines all had to cancel hundreds of flights to inspect and maintain aircraft that had exceeded their maintenance inspection dates. Many other airlines (union and non-union alike) had already completed those inspections on-time without violating any federal regulations. This was a...

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (sunsfan) — Wed, 21 May 2008 12:35:23 PST

thanks for the comments hotscape I believe we should be able to express our opinions wether agreed to or not without being insulted.

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (hotscape) — Tue, 20 May 2008 18:54:09 PST

Capn Steve,
The reason it took me so long to respond is because I never received a notice that I had received a response to my original post. I don't use this website, therefore I do not check it very often. As you'll see, I've never used it before I typed this thread. I only came on here because one of Cpt. Bunn's pupils came on a website that I frequent asking for help and he told us all about Capt Bunn's theories, so I decided to check this site out. The vast majority of pilots who replied on the other forum disagreed with Capt. Bunn's theory. Even the pilots who are in unions disagreed with his theory.
If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself. www.airlinepilotcentral.com
Some other good ones are flightinfo.com, pprune.com, jetcareers.com, willflyforfood.cc, aviationinterviews.com and there are many more.
Go to any of them and ask about Capt Bunn's theories. It will prove to you that most pilots don't feel a...

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (Capn Steve) — Tue, 13 May 2008 18:13:28 PST

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Mon, 12 May 2008 08:17:35 PST

Re: "My point is that you cannot say an airline is safer just because it has a pilot's union; history has proven otherwise."

If you look at the statistics, non-union airlines have had a far worse safety record. Accidents by these airlines are often overlooked because they change their name or they go out of business, or are merged into an airline that does have a union, and the accident gets assigned to the unionized airline.

Instead of doing the statistics, people only point to airlines with no accidents which are so small they have flown only a fraction of the amount an established large airline has flown. If Delta, for example, has one accident in 5,000,000 flights and several fly-by-night airlines have NO accidents each in 100,000 flights, the anti-union people point this so-called excellent accident-free record. It means nothing until those marvelous airlines fly 5,000,000. None ever do.

There are several reasons why a unionized...

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (xetere) — Mon, 12 May 2008 07:49:13 PST

Ok, if you think my facts are wrong, disprove any one of those American Airlines accidents posted on Wikipedia...I challenge you to disprove that a single one of the American Airlines accidents didn't happen. Go on...you talk big, now act big.

huh? What is this high school?

At first I was inclined to believe that while a pilot's union was important, it is possible for a non-unionized airline to be as safe as a unionized one, after all, negative publicity of a crash can and has put an airline out of business, and pilots at large non-unionized airlines (like, say jetBlue) seem to be pretty good. But I don't know. I don't know if there is more pressure at jetBlue to fly in marginal conditions that at American.

But, hotscape, if you are an exemplar of that argument, well, I am going to listen to the people who don't write like they are looking for a fight.

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (sparrow) — Sun, 11 May 2008 13:04:48 PST

Hotscape, You undermine your case by ignoring the strongest arguments in favor of unions, made by Captain Tom in his post. One of these arguments is that with union protection pilots can refuse to fly unsafe planes or in unsafe conditions without fear of losing their jobs.
For example, last December a pilot for Gulfstream International Airlines, an un-unionized airline, was fired because he refused to fly a plane without a functioning anti-collison avoidance system. Because the pressurization system also wasn't functioning, he would have had to fly at a lower-altitude in clouds through a student-training area where a fatal mid-air collusion has just ocurred two days before. After the firing, do you think any pilots at that airline will be refusing to fly unsafe planes?

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (hotscape) — Sat, 10 May 2008 21:16:40 PST

Capn Steve,
Ok, if you think my facts are wrong, disprove any one of those American Airlines accidents posted on Wikipedia...I challenge you to disprove that a single one of the American Airlines accidents didn't happen. Go on...you talk big, now act big.
I'm not sure why you would even say that I'm full of crap; everything I said is true. You seem to be the one misleading people. In fact, all airline pilots from every 121 US airline are held to a seniority list and union pilots are indeed automatically offered the captain upgrade when their seniority number comes up. Even some non-union airlines use this method for upgrading captains.
Yes, it is up to the captain candidate to pass or fail training, but even pilots at non-union airlines must pass the same training, so I fail to see your point.
Regardless, union pilots are still offered the captain upgrade based solely on seniority number. At some non-union airlines, seniority is just one of the...

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (Capn Steve) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:22:19 PST

Hotscape --

You are so full of crap, the whites of your eyes are probably a deep brown --

Just where do you get your "information," anyway. I notice that you cite Wikipedia, which can be "edited" by ANYONE.

Unionized pilots are NOT "automatically upgraded to the captain position": when their seniority numbers permit it. They are OFFERED the chance to upgrade, if they so choose (and many do not). They must make the grade during upgrade training, or they are returned to being F/Os.

They may try again subsequently. That's only fair. (Would even you admit that?)

In fact, at AA, if a pilot doesn't make Captain in a certain amount of time (variable, according to conditions), he/she is TERMINATED. AA is the only airline that I know of who has this policy. (There. Are you happy now?)

The airlines with the most number of crashes are the largest ones, you say. And they all have pilots'...

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 12:40:18 PST

I hear your disagreement. But lack of a union certainly does make an airline less safe.

At a non-union airline

pilots who make waves get fired, so they don't;
pilots who object to poor maintenance get fired, so they don't;
pilots work an extreme schedule producing extreme fatigue and dangerous operations, such as the pilots of the non-union who fell asleep and flew past their destination. See this link.

You say American is not safer. You are looking at history, not the current situation. Historically ALL major airlines did their own maintenance. Now, AA is the ONLY airline still doing that.

Also, you are not looking at how many flights AA has done. AA has done 25,000,000 while Continental has done 10,000,000, so of course there is a difference.

Since you mention...

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (OneAnt) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 12:20:08 PST

Not coincidentally, out of all the airlines in the country, the ones with the most crashes are the largest ones, and they all have pilot's unions.

Not coincidentally, the airlines in that list which are still in business also have the highest number of flights. If you want to make a list that means anything, do it by percentage.

Re: More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (teenadie) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:16:39 PST

I don't see Continental on your list--is it #9, 10 11???

More to consider than unions and maintenance

feeds@kickapps.com (hotscape) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 15:48:49 PST

I disagree with a lot of what has been said on the "fear of flying" forum. While I agree that unions can be helpful, the lack of one does not mean an airline will be less safe.
For example, American Airlines is a long establisted company that has both a pilots union, and they do all of their own maintenance. He would lead you to believe that these two things make American Airlines safer than it's competitors...they do not.

American Airlines (which now owns TWA also) has had more accidents than any other airline in the USA. Even before they were the largest airline, they had a poor safety record. Having strict pilot work rules and in-house maintenance is important, but they are not the only factors that determine airline safety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_accidents

TWA has had the second most accidents of any airline in the USA,...