Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (OneAnt) — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:19:17 PST

A GPS is not going to interfere, as it's just receiving satellite signals and not really transmitting anything.

Your GPS should work on the plane. Give it a shot and let us know.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (esprit12) — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 06:55:27 PST

Hi recentfear,
Have a question, actually two. Is it unsafe to use a GPS on a plane? Are you saying that my GPS wouldn't work on a plane?
Very interested in how this all works although I can't say I really understand.
Thanks,
Pam

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (patrick1971) — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:36:21 PST

Hi recentfear,

Thanks for the answer! I didn't know speeds were relative to the surrounding air.

Still a follow up question on this:
If the speed of the jetstream is known, can you deduce the the 'airspeed' based on GPS? I know this may not be accurate in the end, but I was just wondering how big such discrepancy could be between airspeed readings and GPS.

If the tubes malfunction for whatever reason, and there is not backup system (as far as I'm aware off), wouldn't GPS be a reasonable failsafe mechanism?

thanks
Patrick

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (recentfear) — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:50:33 PST

patrick1971,
Airspeed is different than ground speed. You're probably referring to ground speed, like how your car's GPS is able to figure out the car's speed. This is useless for an aircraft. The only thing that matters is the speed relative to the air in which its flying. When I fly from Asia to the west coast over the pacific, along with the jet stream, the aircraft's speed though the jet stream is constant, but the speed of the shadow cast by my plane on the surface of the pacific is moving way faster than the speed of sound, which is what the GPS would measure.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (hautlipz) — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:35:08 PST

OneAnt, I agree that the odds of a meteor striking any particular plane are extremely small, but the possibility of it happening at all is not implausible if you consider the number of flights that take place in a year -- or over a ten-year span. Meteors do hit houses and cars, but nobody loses any sleep over it.

I was just curious if this has ever proven to be the case with a flight, since someone mentioned it with regard to the Air France crash. But I guess it proves Capt Tom's point -- I'm surprised nobody has speculated about a UFO attack.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (OneAnt) — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:17:42 PST

Logically, I'd think that any object falling through the typical cruising altitude of modern airliners could possibly be an issue, albeit a fantastically minuscule one. So small, in fact, it would be one of those "You've GOT to be joking!" moments.

That US$232M lotto winner would probably have to win that jackpot many, many, MANY times over before even coming close to the probability of a meteor striking a plane aloft.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (hautlipz) — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:32:48 PST

Yes, I realize that speculation is pointless. The Air France crash isn't bothering me -- I figure one major airliner accident in, what, seven years, isn't much to worry about. If only the odds were that good on the road.

I was just curious about the speculation that meteors could have anything to do with airliner accidents at all, since this is an entirely new one on me, and I'm a professional astronomer. Is this just silliness or is there any evidence in the past for meteors interfering with air travel?

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:37:17 PST

Wait. Haven't I said enough about the RISKS of speculation? As it is repeated, it is memorized, and loses its speculative qualities, and begins to feel like fact, and may seem like an omen.

If you insist on speculating, expect it to traumatize you, and that you are responsible for the resulting anxiety.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (hautlipz) — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:22:54 PST

Capt Bunn -- Here's a novel hypothesis about what *may* have happened to the Air France flight: a meteor strike. There is speculation that meteor strikes could be responsible for other crashes, as well. Do you have an opinion on this?

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/05/1419247/Could-a-Meteor-Have-Brought-Down-Air-France-447

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:53:21 PST

Fobic, I posed this on another thread. But it sounds like your thoughts about the dangers of flying are established, and not open to revision. A counseling session is part of the program to make sure you set up the strengthening exercise right. The program does not get you on a flight; that is something only you can do for yourself. What we can do is make it so that if you do get on, you will find out it did work; it did stop the feelings when flying.

But you never find out the program worked by staying at home.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (FobicFlyer) — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:51:20 PST

OneAnt ... Yes, I tried the SOAR program but it didn't work for me. A friend in the States bought it and had great success so she sent the entire package to me thinking it would enable me to overcome my phobia. It didn't. I went through the entire thing, did the exercises, even booked a flight. But the morning I was to fly for the first time in more than a decade, I couldn't even go to the airport. I re-did the exercises but they didn't help. Fortunately, a doctor friend wrote a "he was sick and couldn't travel" letter for me so the ticket was refunded.

Mr. Bunn ... Thanks for taking a moment to respond. To you, my phobia is irrational and unfounded but, to me, it is very real. Actually, I don't drive very much and am terribly uncomfortable riding as a passenger when someone else is driving. When I am riding on a bus or subway, I have to sit at the very front so I can "keep tabs" on what is coming at us; I even plan my escape...

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (patrick1971) — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:24:17 PST

Question:
There are rumours that pitot tubes failed to measure correct airspeed. My question is don't jets have a gps system to locatie their global postion nowadays? (in flight I always see monitors showing the exact location and heading of the aircraft)

If there are conflicting airspeed readings, why can't the info from a gps system not be used to determine airspeed?
In fact why use pitot tubes at all for speed readings?

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 06:35:30 PST

The trend has indeed been downward over time as technology has improved safety.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (mick) — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:00:26 PST

just out of interest is the long term trend in air accidents/fatalities on a donward trend over the course of time?

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (mick) — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:58:03 PST

what you say is spot on linkside.
Living ones life fearful of what might happen is just plain silly and leaves one with so many regrets.
I'm not advocating being careless in life just a little brave and not live the half lived life

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (linkside) — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:47:14 PST

I am a completely fearful flyer, but about a year ago I found this site and read everything thing on it. Cap. Tom is right, you either get a grip of your fear and go ahead and live your life, or you stay home and wish you had done the things you wanted to do. As best I can tell from the number of wrecks I see, flying is far safer than my 30 mile trip to work every day, never mind the trip home. I'm still concerned about flying, but have to put my trust in those charged to take care of us hope for good tanning weather. Seriously, by the time I get through all the garbage at the airport I'm so over it that the flight is the easy part.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:36:17 PST

There is just one completely absurd story in the media after another. The London Times had an "expert" talk about the "coffin corner", a situation which applied ONLY to a Strategic Air Command bomber built back in the 1960s, and claimed that is the crisis the pilots faced on this flight.

Patrick sent an email to one of these ass holes, a reporter for the New York Post; he was indignant.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (esprit12) — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:30:50 PST

Thanks to all for words of support (and reasoning),
For me the bottom line is that I have to face the fear. It's part of my own personal growth (I thought by 60 I'd be full grown but who knew? : ) ) The fear is still there but I will continue to fly with the use of SOAR and the support of family and friends. This recent event has been a setback but it will not stop me in my attempt to face my fears. Life is too short to live in fear. Happy flying to all,
Pam

ps: I will read Patrick Smith's article then no more about the Air France flight. I don't think following the press reports is very helpful.

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW) — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 09:40:39 PST

Re: Portastorm and Patrick Smith. In addition to being an airline pilot, Patrick has extraordinary literary ability. I'm glad you appreciated the perspective, for - as you say - we have no significant information.

Re: FobicFlyer and the odds. The odds BEFORE rolling the dice are what they are, depending on whether you are considering a seven (the most likely outcome) or some other total for the pair of dice. Odds exist only BEFORE a roll. There is no such thing as odds AFTER a roll.

So when you say the odds for the people on the flight were 1 in 1, you are saying the plane was doomed from the start of takeoff. When I flew fighters in the USAF, each day I was assigned a "tail number". That identified the plane I was going to fly. I knew the F-100 was a killer. A third of my classmates in F-100 training were already dead (and that was peacetime), so each day, before going out to the plane, I went to the latrine to urinate (no toilet on an F-100) and...

Re: Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (OneAnt) — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:46:54 PST

Have you made use of the SOAR course?

What I'm trying to get my head around is the idea that you're called FobicFlyer, yet you don't fly, so FobicNonFlyer would be more accurate. And you're here at a fear of flying forum, discussing an issue that shouldn't affect you in the slightest since you don't fly and, apparently, have no intention to.

What is it exactly that you're looking for here? What are you hoping to get out of this?

Air France Flight 'disappeared'?

feeds@kickapps.com (cacik) — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:54:31 PST

Can someone shed any light on what may have happened to the Air France flight that 'disappeared' off the coast of Brazil? At what point does a flight normally cease communication with the point of departure and start communication with the destination point? Are they in communication when they are in international airspace? This makes me really scared - especially since it is a very reputable airline and equipment. If anyone has any helpful comments, please share.
Thanks,
Cacik