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katie |
What would a crash be like? |
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botfish |
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Hi Katie and welcome to the board -
I think this is a topic that Captain Tom would be able to discuss w/ you. What you are thinking about is the worst case scenario. I think since we are here on this board for one reason or another, we have had or are working through fears. The idea of being afraid is what we are or have been dealing with wrt flying. But we all do dangerous things every day. But we do them. Cars are so dangerous but we get in them all day long. Talk on cell phones, yell at our kids, eat, etc while driving. Pilots are so well trained it isn't even funny. Now that I am flying again I am so thankful that THEY are the ones in control. The way I look at it is that the pilots want to reach their destination safely as much as I do. I think that as long as you keep imagining scenarios involving death, you will always be afraid and will never get past the fear. And I do know where you are coming from. I am a young mom of two very young kids. I used to be so very afraid of flying. But I felt like that was controlling me and keeping me from traveling. The number one reason I went through SOAR was not for me (I was the #2 reason)...and this is typical for moms I think. No, I did it for my kids. I NEVER want them to be afraid of something just because I am. I want them to travel and see their grandpa (my dad) who lives in Italy. You have to get past the worst case scenario. You already know what that is and how you would be in a round about way. No one can tell you the answers to the questions you are asking really. We all act differently in a crisis situation. Now what you have to do is not be afraid. To get past that. To understand, really understand that flying is safe. Very very safe. And you will have a wonderful time in Italy. I promise. Jen |
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OneAnt |
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You can read about the TWA 800 crash at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800. I think most people, myself included, have issues with the manner of their death more than the death itself. But a "need" to know every possible circumstance and the details involved, IMO, is unhealthy. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Instead of focusing on what it would be like in order to assuage your fears (which, BTW, won't help you as much as you may think it will), concentrate on ridding yourself of the need to know those details in order to feel better when flying. Get started on the SOAR course and fly with ease. |
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katie |
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Thanks to the both of you...I suppose this isn't the place for me! I wish someone would just tell me that you pass out during a crash-then I would be just
fine. I'm not to the point where I won't get on a plane in June-heck I just flew in Feb, and before that in Sept and Oct. I guess the fear is not
controlling me-I just want more knowledge of what would happen. I disagree that it won't help me deal...I don't feel as if I have that big of a
problem, I just want to know how things would feel so I can prepare. I trust the pilots, I am not afraid of turbulence I just want to know more about the
physics involved when a plane does go down. Knowledge is power. I have successfully dealt with other anxieties in my life this way, so I'm not sure why
this wouldn't be the same? I won't be flying with my son for this trip-he'll be home with my husband, so maybe that is somehow playing into this
suddenly strong anxiety I'm feeling about flying?
Take care- K |
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Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW |
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First, OneAnt is right on target. IF you imagine disaster once, you know you are imagining it. BUT, if you repeatedly imagine that happening, you memorize the
imagination. Once imagination is memorized, since it is stored in the mind in the same manner as factual information is, when it later comes in to mind, it has
the force and authority of fact. That, then, causes it it seem like - if you fly - you definitely will crash. So you are on a very unfortunate track if you
continue to imagine disaster happening.
Second, there is no good reason to do so. I can't, being a pilot, imagine what an accident would be like, or what would signal an accident about to happen. Accidents are so rare in the first place, and in the second place, when there is one, measures are taken so that doesnt' happen again. So, for an accident to happen, it generally is something that never happened before, so you can begin to see how fruitless it is to try to imagine something that has never happened before, or how you would know something that has never happened before is happening. But you, too, are right on target in a different way. (when you say: "I don't really fear death, I fear the manner of death. I have an issue with imagining drownning, plane crashes and torture.") It isn't BEING dead that is the problem, it is GETTING dead. And when you begin to think about how awful "getting" dead on a plane might be, what are you using for the basis of that? Perhaps, if Alan Schore (researcher in neurobiological psychology) suggests, it has might come from being put to bed as a young child and left in terror to cry it out. He says, according to his research, when kids put to bed to "cry it out" appear to have gone to sleep, they are not asleep, but in a state of disassociated terror. It is very interesting to me how, when people imagine "getting dead" on a plane, that they seem to know the experience so well. I believe it is based on childhood terrors, which we hope to never feel again. Another factor is that when pregnant and approaching delivery, recent research shows the expectant mother's brain is flooded with hormones that cause an obsession with safety. Anything that remotely (it doesn't have to make sense) seems like a risk has to be avoided. That's good for protecting the new infant in a primitive way, but it doesn't really protect in a modern world where such genetic encoding dealt with dangers that persisted thousands of years ago. And, though the hormones subside after deliver, the patterns established during that time may stick. That, in part, is what you are dealing with. In any case, I'm sure we can correct it. Take a look at www.fearofflying.com/relief/ |
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katie |
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I'm very happy I made the decision not to let my child "cry it out" then!
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OneAnt |
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What if I told you it would always be a conscious, terror-filled, stomach-in-throat, 10 minute drop? Can you handle that and be totally fine with flying?
In the end, the point is to *NOT* let the cosmically tiny chance of some fatal incident cause fear, even if it is the most horrible experience you could conjure up; so the answer to what it would feel like shouldn't matter in the slightest. |
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katie |
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My answer to that is no, but I am guessing that is not how it would be, and if someone could just promise me that it wouldn't, I would feel better. Is it
going to make me stop flying? No, but I would feel so much better.
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OneAnt |
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What you're asking for--someone to promise you that it wouldn't be like that--is impossible.
Can you promise me that, in general, I won't die in some terrifying way? I'd feel so much better about living my life if someone could just promise me that it would all be rosy. Your goal should be to become comfortable with flying itself, not just when you *feel* safe based on hollow promises. I think you know that no one can possibly promise you what you're asking, and it sounds more like you're just explaining how you feel, which--trust me--most of us have gone through. There was a time when I would have given anything for the pilot to come out, guarantee me 100% that the flight would be completely uneventful and we'd land safely. I would have slept like a baby. But I fly enough that I've come to terms with the statistics and learned, in a very visceral way, that I'll be perfectly fine. Is it a 100% guarantee? No. But it's better than you'll get anywhere else.
Last Edited By: OneAnt
04/10/09 13:27:34.
Edited 1 times.
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katie |
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Thanks OneAnt, you're right. I *am* just talking about what I'm feeling...and actually, find myself feeling a bit more confident about my upcoming trip
already. I am comfortable with flying, really, don't roll your eyes...
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OneAnt |
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The problem with your question is that there are endless answers. Alaska Airlines 261 that nose dived and spiralled into the water from 17000 ft. Helios 522 had a slow decompression, causing a lack of oxygen. Hypoxia set in and the passengers and crew all drifted slowly and calmly off to sleep--and then into comas--long before the plane ran out of fuel and crashed. In between those two extremes there are others. |
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katie |
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80 seconds to drop 13000 ft, that's what I'm talking about!
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Capt Tom Bunn MSW LCSW |
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We have a little thing in the SOAR Course called "The Thousand Moment Life". It is a story about a little animal that lives in a hole. Destiny has
determined that this little animal is going to live one-thousand moments. But the little animal doesn't know. So, every day, it peeks out just a bit to see
what is going on and thinks, "Is this 'IT' - is this the last moment of my life?"
And after answering that, and discovering it is still alive, it assumes it isn't the last moment of its life, and crawls back into its hole to safety. Then, in the next moment, it repeats that. And continues to repeat that until moment number 999. Then, when moment one-thousand arrives, and the little creature climbs up to look around, and asks, "Is this the last moment of my life?" And discovers it is. Then it says, "Ahhhhh. At LAST I can relax." And then it dies. The point of the story is that the focus on safety and what it might be like to die - yes, of course, in the service of being prepared and bracing yourself for it - only consumes every moment of a person's life, except one: the last one. Finally, when you realize you are about to die, you get it live. But for only one moment - in your whole life. It reminds me of how stock car racing got started. Guy who ran "moonshine" liquor gathered at a track in North Wilkesboro, N.C. to race each other on a dirt track. The organizer and owner of the track required a small entry fee. Basically, the rules were, there are no rules. When a prospective driver asked about the rules, the expression was, "You pays your money and you takes your chances." It isn't easy to recognize, much less accept, that there are no guarantees, and the rules are not always followed, and there is no absolute safety. |
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CRob21 |
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OneAnt wrote: Ugh, that flight along with the movie "Final Destination" are at the very center of my fears.... since that flight I made every effort to avoid the MD-80 series as stupid as that sounds. |
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OneAnt |
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No need to avoid them, CRob21. The vast majority of my flights are on MD80s and I'm still here to post about it. And I'm small potatoes. Capn Steve
flew them for years!
If you avoid every single aircraft that has had an incident of one kind or another in its history (not just fatal ones), you'll probably be driving or sailing to every destination. |
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CRob21 |
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OneAnt wrote: Now you're talking! Just kidding... I know it's silly, it's just something I did. I avoided Alaska for a long time after that too, but now its what I usually fly most of the time. Baby steps I suppose... |
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katie |
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CRob21: It's funny, reading about that flight eased my fears! I really liked that they talked about exactly how long it took to fall x feet. We all have
different responses to these things, blame our crazy brains! I "came out" with my fear to my family last night (the trip to Italy in June is with ALL
of my family-so exciting!) and all of them said they would prefer death by airplane than practically any other death-save possibly going during sleep. I
thought that was insane...anyway...when did you take the course? I am not sold on it yet (no offense, anyone) I need to learn how to order certain parts...for
instance reading about exactly how the plane works (the more technical the better) would be good...I would also like to read about every type of system in the
plane and what each system does...I feel I can cope with the anxiety okay-music and a good book should do wonders. Having a heights thing doesn't help any.
No windows for me!
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CRob21 |
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I took the course last year, I ordered the complete relief and got all of the videos for download. It works really well, lots of informative stuff in there
that I didn't know a lot about. I started downloading them to my ipod again last night so I can have them on the flight tomorrow.I still have trouble with
the excercises, but thats just because its hard for me to concentrate when I'm anxious. I would recommend it. I would also recommend the chats and keeping
in touch on the board. That helps me more than anything!
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OneAnt |
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I have a heights issue too. I prefer not to face the glass in a glass elevator. I keep a good distance from the railing on high places. If I'm standing on
the ground, I get that twinge of ick when I look up at something tall.
However, I love the view from the airplane. It never bothers me. There was one exception sometime last year, though. I was flying from Chicago to Dallas and we passed over St Louis. I get the ick just looking up at the arch from the ground. So, there I was, gazing out of the window on a clear afternoon and I spotted the arch. It looked SO small from 30k ft. In a flash, I thought about standing under it, looking up, and how high it seems. And here I was above it so far that it looked tiny. I had to look away. In my defense, I was beyond hungover, and I'm abnormally affected by some things in that state. Heights is one of them. |
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Leslie |
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Katie, you kind of remind me of myself before I started the SOAR course, except that, like CRoB, my top favorite airline crash to fear was Alaska 261. To me,
it seemed like the worst way in the world to die. I talked to a coworker about it, and he said that if he had to die in an airline crash, he would prefer one
like 261, where he had some time to contemplate his existence and, I guess, get right with his maker and what not. We are silly to talk about this, but
that's what fearful flyers talk about.
I'm risking a lot by posting a humorous but informative link here -- last time I posted it, I got yelled at and told I was stupid, but this is the info you seem to be asking for, so here ya go ... how to survive an explosion at 35,000 feet: http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0103/freefall
Last Edited By: Leslie
04/13/09 18:43:50.
Edited 2 times.
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katie |
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Leslie, I've read that! Hahaha. Before I found this forum I spent a lot of time googling "what actually kills you in a crash" etc and that is
what I came up with. It was *not* what I was looking for, but it's funny! Of course I had to look up the info on the woman who survived a fall from 30K
feet-heh. I would rather free fall than fall in a plane, that's for sure! I guess the 2nd wave of dissapointment on Alaska 261 was probably pretty
intense-and that bothers me, but it was over quickly from that point on-which comforts me. Are all the dvds in the SOAR course Capt Tom talking close-up with
various very outdated looking people/places behind him (aka like the intro video?) I'm a skeptic at this point, although I've convinced myself that no
matter how outdated the plane info dvd is, it will still probably help...
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Note from Capt. Tom I know everyone worries about weather, but pilots really do not worry about it. We simply - instead of worrying about it - completely prepare for it. Before going to the plane, we review the weather at the destination. If it is not 100% sure to be within legal limits when we arrive at the destination, we must specify an alternate airport in our planning documents, and load on plenty of fuel for going to the destination airport, and then if need be, diverting to the alternate airport. The legal limits are conservative. Even when weather is slightly outside the legal limits, any airline pilot could still land safely. You can rely on the captain never to land when the weather is not legal, and legality limits are reached prior to safety limits. If you are still anxious, call me and we can talk it over. I'm at 877 332-7359 from 10 AM until 7 PM Eastern time. For effective help, even if you are flying in a day or two, sign up now at www.fearofflying.com/fasttrack and call me when you finish Clip 9 so I can make sure you are all set. |
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Using Weather Information If you enter your ZIP Code or City at the top of the weather presentation, it will give you weather for your area. Or, you can enter your destination ZIP Code or City.
Click on the "LOCAL RADAR" button to see whether or not there are thunder- Turbulence, though it may cause anxiety, does not mean anything is wrong. Turbulence does not mean danger. The plane can handle far more turbulence than Mother Nature can dish out. Though flying in turbulence is safe, it doesn't feel safe. And here is where the SOAR programs come in. We can help you feel as safe when you fly as you actually are. You can see these programs at www.fearofflying.com/store. |